The confiscated shotgun:
From the point where the barrel inserts into the Stock to the end of the barrel: 17 and 3/4 inches;
If you include that portion of the barrel (it's all machined from one piece of metal) that inserts into the stock: 18 and 3/4 inches.
Unlike the very detailed TPWD rules for measuring your fish, no case law on this one that I could find.
Illegal shotgun or not?
Make: Winchester "Defender"

I have always been told that ATF measures barrel length by closing the action, dropping a wooden dowel down the barrel, marking the dowel at the end of the barrel, and then measuring the distance from the mark to the end of the dowel. Sounds reasonable to me.

This shotgun,overall, exceeded the 26inches. Like the dowel measuring approach and will try that.

Heck, I tuned in thinking this was an informercial,

The barrel begins where the chamber for the shell ends. Measuring from the muzzle to the front of the bolt would add 2-3/4" or 3" or 3-1/2" (depending on which size shell the gun will take) to the actual barrel length.

To figure the length of the barrel, measure a dowel dropped down the muzzle, with the bolt closed. Then subtract the size of the chamber. You will see the max. size shell the gun will take on the side of the receiver.

If it is a stock Defender, which has never been modified, it is almost certainly legal I would think.

This is a great question. I have always thought to measure from the part of the barrel where it meets the receiver to the end of the business end of the barrel.

All of the SBS cases I've had involved shotguns with barrels that were clearly illegal, like 10" double barreled shotguns.

But this brings up an interesting point. Is the machined screw portion of the barrel counted in the length?

Ree, does the end of the barrel look altered/cut?

Have you called ATF and asked them to come measure the barrel length?

Terry, that makes sense. If I'm following correctly, you drop a dowel down the barrel with the gun unloaded but cocked. You then subtract the length of the shell it is designed to take. Is that right?

So for example, with a 12 gauge shotgun. If the physical part of the barrel from where it attaches to the receiver to the end of barrel is 15 1/4" but the gun has a 2 3/4" chamber, then that would be an 18" barrel? Is that right? If it is right, why aren't more police shotguns manufactured with a 15 1/4" barrel (from receiver to end)?

I've owned a couple of duty shotguns in the past (Remington and Mossberg) and measured the barrel from where it leaves the receiver to the end of barrel, and on those two guns it measured 18" and 18 1/4" respectively.

Is there any federal case law on this? I'll have to look for some Texas cases.

As far as federal law, 27 crf 179.11 includes the following language:

"Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; . . . . For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore."

What's kind of embarrasing here is the fact that I have been around guns and shooting guns since I was old enough to carry one. Since there is no Texas case law and no guidance in the statute, I can hear some defense attorney coming up with his own (beneficial to Defendant of course) measurement methodology. My first thought was simply to remove the barrel and measure it; it is machined from one piece of metal.
I hope we never get a case involving the Taurus "Judge". It's a pistol that fires a 45 caliber round AND can fire a 410 shotgun shell. I've seen it marketed as the ultimate self-defense weapon.

Sounds like the sort of gun "Mississippi" (played by James Caan) carried around with John Wayne in the movie "El Dorado". You can see it in part of one scene at this clip.

I'm guessing the Judge gets away from the shotgun length provisions because the barrel is rifled, thus taking it outside the definition of a shotgun. I've seen derringers in the past that would take the same two kinds of ammo.

That's interesting about the ATF regs adding the chamber length to the barrel. In the absence of any state guidelines, I'm guessing that would be a fairly probative factor that would apply to almost all shotguns. Lesson: get a newer goose gun made for the magnum steel shotshells and you can cut off more barrel.

Seems like that's the same movie in which Mississippi says "A horse won't step on a man..." after he rolls up under a rampaging bunch of hooves or hoofs or horseshoes (I'll stick with horseshoes, they're easier to spell). But in movies right around that time, there were fellows getting trampled by horses all the time. I remember as a young pre-teen being in a quandry about whether I should roll around on the ground if a stampede ever caught me on the streets of Gulfport, Miss., or if I should duck into the nearest Ben Franklin's 5 & 10 for safety.

quote:

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Originally posted by REE:
I hope we never get a case involving the Taurus "Judge". It's a pistol that fires a 45 caliber round AND can fire a 410 shotgun shell. I've seen it marketed as the ultimate self-defense weapon.

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The Thompson Contender pistol, a single shot pistol with interchangeable barrels which is marketed (and has been since the late 70's or early 80's) as a .45 LC/.410 shotshell is not a sawed off shotgun (or short barrel shotgun or sbs in federal speak), and neither is the Jud

So back to my question. I guess, bearing in mind the federal definition of barrel measurement, you can have a shotgun barrel of 15 1/4" if the breach is 2 3/4" long.

Am I correct? If so, why aren't the police shotguns marketed by Remington et al this length, instead of being 18" from the receiver end to the muzzle?

"why aren't the police shotguns marketed by Remington et al this length, instead of being 18" from the receiver end to the muzzle?"

When you attach an extended magazine, it would extend beyond the muzzle - that's bad.

That's true about the extended magazine, but that could easily be cut down to fit the smaller barrel. Or so I would think.

I suppose Remington doesn't want to find itself charged as a manufacturer of illegal shotguns if one of the states decided to use a different measuring method - one that doesn't include the chamber.